The Joys of Force Feedback

[Tim Ling]

Currently I don't usually use force feedback, as driving one handed does get really tiring with the extra effort needed with FF on. However after watching the latest inside sim racing, I decided to try the tips given by Sean.
Although I have a formula force ex not a G 25, the settings in the Logitech software were similar. Until I tried this, I had the spring centering set to 150%. This was because of the one-handed driving: it just seemed a bit easier this way. However, when turning on the force feedback the spring centering caused problems. The wheel seemed to be fighting against itself and wasn't very natural.
First of all I tried the force feedback in rFactor. After trying to adjust the force feedback to make it comfortable, I found that setting it to medium was best for me and actually helps me go a whole second faster round Imola with the Porsche.

Then I tried GTR. In GTR the experiment wasn't as successful, as the FF just didn't feel right. There are lots of different options with the force feedback in the game. So I think I probably need to mess around with them some more.

one thing I did notice was that because I didn't have spring centring on, I found it somewhat easier to turn in to the corners, which has been a problem of mine.
So what did I actually find out with my little experiment? For me at least force feedback can be an advantage, if it is set up correctly. However, it can also be a distraction. Do drivers really feel all this through their steering wheel on real cars? I don't know, I've never raced unfortunately .

If you have any suggestions about how I can set up the force feedback, please post them below stop

[Andrew Evans]

i love force feedback and feel like i'm driving blind without it... it's another stream of info to go with visual and audio... i tend to set my ff quite low, so i can feel it, but it doesn't want to break my wrists also, get a bit of the old rsi from typey typey and the violent vibration just sets my tendons on fiiiiire

one of the aliens has the wheel that ranks above the g25 but costs like a million quid... and it doesn't have any ff.... so it's obviously an individual thing - for me i just drive better with it...

[Mark Guy]

Hi guys.
I have actually been driving without FFB for the last few weeks and still don't know if it is any better on or off. I'm gonna enable it again and test somemore and maybe one day I can decide which one is better.

I would like to know if you guys install the Logitech software for you wheels or di you just use the windows software.??
EDIT: oh and I have a Logitech Momo.

[Michael Herrmann]

if i guess you talk about the ECCI Andy right ?? if so yea no FFB but it has a fluid damper system *sidenote if i could affort one i would order it right now*

[Mike Simian]

Alot of setting up your ffb comes from the rcs files in your game folders, if your using any of the simbin games or games with same game engine you should find rcs files in your controlset folder. these can be modified with notepad. here is one that i have been working on, its not finished but its getting pretty good and its alot of fun trying all the different settings.

FFB Device Name="LOGITECH G25 RACING WHEEL USB"
FFB Rumble Pad="0" // Type of FFB controller: 0=wheel, joystick etc with force feedback, 1 = pad with rumble motor
FFB Effects Level="4" // Number of FFB effects to use: 0=No Effects, 1=Low, 2=Medium, 3=High, 4=Full, 5=Custom.
FFB Gain="0.75000" // Strength of Force Feedback effects. Range 0.0 to 1.0.
FFB Throttle FX on steer axis="1" // 0 = Throttle effects on throttle axis, 1 = throttle effects on steering axis.
FFB Brake FX on steer axis="1" // 0 = Brake effects on brake axis, 1 = brake effects on steering axis.
FFB steer vibe freq mult="0.05000" // Controls frequency of steering vibration. Recommended: 0.5 to 1.0, 0.0 disables steering vibration.
FFB steer vibe zero magnitude="0.10000" // Magnitude of steering vibration at 0mph (reference point).
FFB steer vibe slope="0.50000" // Slope of line defining magnitude as a function of frequency (used with FFB steer vibe zero magnitude).
FFB steer vibe wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.
FFB steer force average weight="0.50000" // How much weight is given to new steering force calculations each frame (0.01 - 1.0). Lower values will smooth out the steering force, but will also add latency.
FFB steer force exponent="0.50000" // Steering force output "sensitivity". Range 0.0 to infinity. 0.0 to 1.0 = higher sensitivity, greater than 1.0 = lower sensitivity.
FFB steer force input max="-11500.00000" // Recommended: 11500 (-11500 if controller pulls in the wrong direction).
FFB steer force output max="0.50000" // Maximum force output of steering force, recommendation 0.8 to 2.0
FFB steer force grip weight="0.50000" // Range 0.0 to 1.0, recommended: 0.4 to 0.9. How much weight is given to tire grip when calculating steering force.
FFB steer force grip factor="0.50000" // Range 0.0 to 1.0, recommended: 0.2 to 0.6. How much of a factor the front wheel grip is on the steering weight.
FFB steer update thresh="0.0001500000" // Amount of change required to update steer force/vibe (0.0 - 1.0). Lower values = steering force updated more frequently = lower frame rate.
FFB steer friction coefficient="0.05000" // Coefficient to use for steering friction. Range: -1.0 to 1.0
FFB steer friction saturation="0.50000" // Saturation value to use for steering friction. Range: 0 - 1.0
FFB steer damper coefficient="0.10000" // Coefficient to use for steering damper. Range: -1.0 to 1.0
FFB steer damper saturation="1.00000" // Saturation value to use for steering damper. Range: 0 - 1.0
FFB throttle vibe freq mult="0.20000" // Scales actual engine frequency to force FFB vibration frequency. Suggested range: 0.10 to 0.50
FFB throttle vibe zero magnitude="0.05000" // Magnitude of engine vibration at 0rpm (reference point).
FFB throttle vibe slope="1.00000" // Slope of line defining magnitude as a function of frequency (used with FFB throttle vibe zero magnitude).
FFB throttle vibe wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.
FFB throttle vibe update thresh="0.02000" // Amount of change required to update throttle vibe (0.0 - 1.0)
FFB brake vibe freq mult="0.90000" // Scales actual brake rotational frequency to force feedback vibration frequency.
FFB brake vibe zero magnitude="0.05000" // Magnitude of brake vibration at 0mph (reference point).
FFB brake vibe slope="0.60000" // Slope of line defining magnitude as a function of frequency (used with FFB brake vibe zero magnitude).
FFB brake vibe wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.
FFB brake vibe update thresh="0.02000" // Amount of change required to update brake vibe (0.0 to 1.0)
FFB rumble strip magnitude="0.50000" // How strong the rumble strip rumble is. Range 0.0 to 1.0, 0.0 disables effect.
FFB rumble strip freq mult="1.00000" // Rumble stip frequency multiplier 1.0 = one rumble per wheel rev.
FFB rumble strip wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.
FFB rumble strip pull factor="-0.50000" // How strongly wheel pulls right/left when running over a rumble strip. Suggested range: -1.5 to 1.5.
FFB rumble strip update thresh="0.07500" // Amount of change required to update rumble strip effect (0.0 - 1.0)
FFB jolt magnitude="1.00000" // How strong jolts from other cars (or walls) are. Suggested Range: -2.0 to 2.0.

If you using a different wheel copy past all but the top line.

[Tim Ling]

Thanks Mike, gonna try those settings out.

[Neil Gault]

Have a read through this Tim and it will explain what a lot of the settings do in a bit more detail.
I know it helped me setup my wheel so it suits me, i ain't as bad as you with one hand but i do have limited use of my thumbs so i have to tone down a lot of the settings and use a crappy thrustmaster wheel with thinner thumbgrips.

Force Feedback Tweaking Guide for Simbin Games *
* Julien Regnard v1.0

[Dave Stephenson]

i feel naked without my ffb. all those tyre scrapes and screams dont really seem to mean the same without it. if i turn it off im forever estimating what the levels of grip are wether or not a particular wheel has traction. although youd know half a second later from the reaction of the car in visual terms its much quicker response for preventative measures with it. no matter what level you have and what strength id recommend it to anyone

[Tim Ling]

Cheers Neil, I'll give it a read

*EDIT*

Wow, that was worth reading. And one of the bits I needed most ?

B. FFB levels


* Low:
steering force (steering+grip)

* Medium
steering force+ damper+ friction+ strips rumble

*High
steering force+ damper+ friction+ strips rumble+ brakes vibration

*Full
steering force+ damper+ friction+ strips rumble+ brakes vibration+ throttle vibration+ steering vibration

Yep, I certainly needed help with that section, 'cos I totally misunderstood what that setting was for I'm going to have to do some work on GTRe and rFactor with this info.

Some extra questions though;

the smoothing force isn't based on the frame rate now according to the document, so how do you set this up now?

in rFactor, I tried the RealFeel plugin which made things feel worse. Is there any setup guides for that, or does it work the same way?

[fawadka]

Hi all. I have just purchased the Logitech Driving Force GT. I have used it with GTR Evolution and with Live for Speed. I'm not sure I'm getting much feedback even with max settings. It seems just enough force to bring the wheel to center if I let it go, but I never have to fight the wheel at any time. Isn't that the point of FFB? Can anyone offer help? Thanks in advance!!

Cheers!

[Dave Stephenson]

if you want to make it harder to tnr fawadka its not the level ie Max, High, Medium, low that sets it its the percentages below, at least in GTRe anyways, i dont have live for speed.

most people dont have it up too high. i have the global ffb strength at 60-70% its strong to turn against but not too strong and it has enough force to catch me out if i let it but its not like turning an eighteen wheeler with no power steering.

i dont have that particular wheel but with most wheels from logitech you had to select "reverse force feedback effects" of the force will help you turn rather than work against you.

[Matt Crouch]

Got to say I didn't realise the low / medium / high etc. did those things.

I've been trying to get my FFB settings right since getting my DFP and I think it's getting there. iirc the default steering force (for both DFP and G25) is 170% - to me this seemed to be ridiculously high because it was a real struggle just to turn corners. With 85% ffb strength / 100% steering I find most cars drivable but have major difficulty going through chicanes in any GT car because I couldn't get the wheel to turn quick enough. Maybe I'm just weak?

I'm currently using 75% ffb strength and 100% steering force (I think, might be 85...) and I'm finding it a lot easier to drive. There is some resistance to turning the wheel (good) but I can get round chicanes without under steering horribly.

Mainly though I've been trying to decide what people normally expect from centring force. Should it actually be difficult to turn the wheel? Obviously it will be heavier than driving a normal road car in real life but I found that having it at "100%" settings was really hindering my lap times.

edit: this is GTRe I'm referring to

[Neil Gault]

Originally Posted by Tim Ling

Some extra questions though;

the smoothing force isn't based on the frame rate now according to the document, so how do you set this up now?

in rFactor, I tried the RealFeel plugin which made things feel worse. Is there any setup guides for that, or does it work the same way?

wish i knew m8, but sadly i do not
I have mine set to try and feel the tyres as much as i can, i am not interested in the braking or engine vibrations as to me they are just all wrong, every time i try and set it up it makes the car feel like the disks are warped or the engine mountings are hanging off.
Now if they could translate the brake wear into vibration then yes it would be great now that is something immersion and simbin could get together to work on.

[fawadka]

I'm still having no luck with my FFB wheel. I have put everything all the way up, even tried to reverse effects. All I get is enough force to center the wheel when I let it go. It recognizes the wheel as Driving Force GT, I can program the buttons and all...... but I really wish i could get the real benefit of the wheel. I got GTR via Steam, so I'm not sure how to find the folder and use Mike Simian's comments above. Anyone have any ideas? Thank you in advance!

[Chris Standring]

Originally Posted by fawadka

I'm still having no luck with my FFB wheel. I have put everything all the way up, even tried to reverse effects. All I get is enough force to center the wheel when I let it go. It recognizes the wheel as Driving Force GT, I can program the buttons and all...... but I really wish i could get the real benefit of the wheel. I got GTR via Steam, so I'm not sure how to find the folder and use Mike Simian's comments above. Anyone have any ideas? Thank you in advance!

Sounds to me like youve a fault with your wheel/motor, as the Driving Force GT can put out quite a nice amount of force when its cranked up, certainly enough to make any steering at all hard work in evo.

[David Thompson]

path for control settings in GTR-Evo if you installed in defaul location

Program Files > Steam > SteamApps > 'Steam Account Name' > Race 07 > UserData > ControlSet

Open the .rcs file here with notepad find the settings and paste over the top.

[Ries Notenboom]

Thanks for the bits of info here, going to try out some different things.

Normally got FFB set to medium but I definately miss the feedback from braking. Using the Red MoMo btw.

[David Thompson]

Also it is important that you have windows settings done correctly as well so for the complete FFB setup and if others post their setups it will give others a lot more to try out.

Windows Settings

Degrees of Rotation - 420

Overall Effects Strength - 70

Spring Effect Strength - 0

Damper Effect Strength - 0

Centering Spring Strength - 0 (Enabled)

I keep my FFB profile consistent across all sims

FFB Device Name="LOGITECH G25 RACING WHEEL USB"
FFB Rumble Pad="0" // Type of FFB controller: 0=wheel, joystick etc with force feedback, 1 = pad with rumble motor
FFB Effects Level="1" // Number of FFB effects to use: 0=No Effects, 1=Low, 2=Medium, 3=High, 4=Full, 5=Custom.
FFB Gain="0.99000" // Strength of Force Feedback effects. Range 0.0 to 1.0.
FFB Throttle FX on steer axis="1" // 0 = Throttle effects on throttle axis, 1 = throttle effects on steering axis.
FFB Brake FX on steer axis="1" // 0 = Brake effects on brake axis, 1 = brake effects on steering axis.
FFB steer vibe freq mult="0.50000" // Controls frequency of steering vibration. Recommended: 0.5 to 1.0, 0.0 disables steering vibration.
FFB steer vibe zero magnitude="0.04000" // Magnitude of steering vibration at 0mph (reference point).
FFB steer vibe slope="0.00000" // Slope of line defining magnitude as a function of frequency (used with FFB steer vibe zero magnitude).
FFB steer vibe wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.
FFB steer force average weight="0.40000" // How much weight is given to new steering force calculations each frame (0.01 - 1.0). Lower values will smooth out the steering force, but will also add latency.
FFB steer force exponent="0.75000" // Steering force output "sensitivity". Range 0.0 to infinity. 0.0 to 1.0 = higher sensitivity, greater than 1.0 = lower sensitivity.
FFB steer force input max="-11500.00000" // Recommended: 11500 (-11500 if controller pulls in the wrong direction).
FFB steer force output max="1.70000" // Maximum force output of steering force, recommendation 0.8 to 2.0
FFB steer force grip weight="0.55000" // Range 0.0 to 1.0, recommended: 0.4 to 0.9. How much weight is given to tire grip when calculating steering force.
FFB steer force grip factor="0.70000" // Range 0.0 to 1.0, recommended: 0.2 to 0.6. How much of a factor the front wheel grip is on the steering weight.
FFB steer update thresh="0.0000500000" // Amount of change required to update steer force/vibe (0.0 - 1.0). Lower values = steering force updated more frequently = lower frame rate.
FFB steer friction coefficient="-0.00000" // Coefficient to use for steering friction. Range: -1.0 to 1.0
FFB steer friction saturation="1.00000" // Saturation value to use for steering friction. Range: 0 - 1.0
FFB steer damper coefficient="0.00000" // Coefficient to use for steering damper. Range: -1.0 to 1.0
FFB steer damper saturation="1.00000" // Saturation value to use for steering damper. Range: 0 - 1.0
FFB throttle vibe freq mult="0.25000" // Scales actual engine frequency to force FFB vibration frequency. Suggested range: 0.10 to 0.50
FFB throttle vibe zero magnitude="0.09000" // Magnitude of engine vibration at 0rpm (reference point).
FFB throttle vibe slope="0.00000" // Slope of line defining magnitude as a function of frequency (used with FFB throttle vibe zero magnitude).
FFB throttle vibe wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.
FFB throttle vibe update thresh="0.02000" // Amount of change required to update throttle vibe (0.0 - 1.0)
FFB brake vibe freq mult="0.85000" // Scales actual brake rotational frequency to force feedback vibration frequency.
FFB brake vibe zero magnitude="0.09000" // Magnitude of brake vibration at 0mph (reference point).
FFB brake vibe slope="0.00000" // Slope of line defining magnitude as a function of frequency (used with FFB brake vibe zero magnitude).
FFB brake vibe wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.
FFB brake vibe update thresh="0.02000" // Amount of change required to update brake vibe (0.0 to 1.0)
FFB rumble strip magnitude="0.25000" // How strong the rumble strip rumble is. Range 0.0 to 1.0, 0.0 disables effect.
FFB rumble strip freq mult="0.50000" // Rumble stip frequency multiplier 1.0 = one rumble per wheel rev.
FFB rumble strip wave type="0" // Type of wave to use for vibe: 0=Sine, 1=Square, 2=Triangle, 3=Sawtooth up, 4=Sawtooth down.
FFB rumble strip pull factor="-0.62252" // How strongly wheel pulls right/left when running over a rumble strip. Suggested range: -1.5 to 1.5.
FFB rumble strip update thresh="0.07500" // Amount of change required to update rumble strip effect (0.0 - 1.0)
FFB jolt magnitude="1.00000" // How strong jolts from other cars (or walls) are. Suggested Range: -2.0 to 2.0.

Ingame Steering lock - 23

I also have some other links to FFB discussion threads on racesimcentral but the forum is down at the moment so I will post them as soon as it is available again.

[Mike Simian]

Going back to your origional post, what I find useful with FFB is that its gives you back some of the feel that is lost from G forces and the visceral experience of being in a real car. No you don't feel all the FFB effects through the wheel in real life, but we are trying to race these cars with a hell of a lot less information in the game to help us than would be there in real life.

I like to think of FFB as adding another cue for you to react to, another layer of information to use. Some people like to drive in sim games with a tail cam so they can see the car and see more of the track thus giving them more information to react to. If you look at FFB like this then its not realism you are trying to achieve, really its all about trying to add back as much of the information thats missing from real life through the limited channels that are available.

If we all had FFB cockpits that moved around and simulated G forces etc then we wouldn't require those FFB effects to be present in the steering wheels.

Thats my take on FFB anyway, and when I try to setup my wheel this is how I think. I want positive cues from the wheel, things that are easily understood, and make sense so I can react to them.

Bored at work sorry for the wall of text

[Tim Ling]

Thanks for the advice guys. Since turning FFB on, I've found driving easier, as I can feel more of whats going on.
I'll try those settings in rFactor as well. What I want is a G25, though I'll have to wait a while for that

[Dannevang]

Hi
Force Feedback does clearly help me. I think it is easier to feel how the carsetup works.
For me it is very importent to have the ff on high when i am driving the BMW in Race, then i have a better felling with the curbs, etc.

[Mitchell Phillipi]

Why would anyone NOT want to use FFB? Isn't the whole idea to be more life-like? Sure it's a game, but wow FFB really adds to the experience IMO. Cheers