Force feedback or non force feedback

[Chris Noble]

I drive without FF on as its so much hard work!

The main issue I have with it is either the steering is so stiff its just not realistic or there is not enough resistance to drive it in a straight line!

I really liked how you can feel when the tyres are slipping and you get a much better sense for looking after tyre wear and having the little bumps here and there is great.

The main issue is fast split second reactions, when you have FF fighting you it makes it all sloppy and no where near as precise or quick enough to rescue the car.

I also go much faster with it off.


Basically for me it would be ideal to have FF on with it giving me the feedback about what the car is doing, but not have really stiff steering and have some resistance so that you can drive in a straight line.

From what I have experienced the above contradicts itself.

[Daniel Plaikner]

Originally Posted by Lee Downham

... what wheel do you have Daniel?

Hey Lee , I'm using a G25

@chris i think If in a real racing car there would be no G effects and steering forces, drivers would be quicker. But this will hopefully never be ;-)

[Lee Downham]

... this is my feeling too (& maybe I wrote it before but am too lazy to look back through the thread?) ... but sim racing to me includes having the feel and forces coming out of the wheel and pushing me about a bit as would happen in a real racing car.
Not to use them may be quicker, but it also removes an element of realism for me personally ...

[Daniel Plaikner]

I can understand you Lee, but when I'm driving for example in the V-WTCC I want to be as quck as possible, the realism is then not important

If you want the best realism, drive with FF on.
If you want to be as quick as possible, turn FF off.

[Attila Domján]

For me switching it off for the first time was mainly not to be faster (of course thats also not a problem if it comes with it lol), but as you said, FF is distracing me too a bit with its small delays. With FF on you will always react on the happenings a fraction later because of the nature of the technology behind.

[Lee Downham]

maybe its time for a lap of the nordschleife to see what happens with FF off

[James Yates]

I prefer FFB on as any time i have tried it with it off the car just feels like it does whatever the hell it wants without me knowing anything. Might be how i drive, which is feeling what the car is doing through the wheel, as when i can feel the cars responses i have much more confidence to drive quicker. I can see why it could help in catching slides if you can move the wheel faster - but again any time ive tried that its ended with me massively over correcting the slide and i never really do that with FFB as i can feel how much opposite lock the car needs.

[Lee Downham]

Ohhh man ... you lot are like the kids at school who go around telling everyone that santa doesn't exist and ruining the magic of Christmas!!

I just did a couple of laps of the Nordschleife with no FF, and after an initial whooly bizarro feeling with it which caused a couple of crashes , I started to get exactly what you guys mean ...

I hit my apex's with so much more consistency and there is a mental calm that comes with not "listening" and reacting to your hands all the time, instead I seemed to concentrate on the road ahead much more calmly and anticipated or corrected things before they happened, rather than reacting to them after I got the hit through my hands.

I get what you are saying too James, and yes once something does happen like a slide it is harder to know exactly what is going on, but because you begin to rely on your FF and as Atti says are getting the information too late, then you are not anticipating things nor correcting them correctly or quick enough, and so end up making more errors than you would without the FF.


The realisation is dawning on me, but I am not sure if I want to take this any further (and probably start to go faster than I do with FF) - I still love the magic of Christmas and FF!!

[Frank Sutton]

Originally Posted by Lee Downham

I quickly (only for 10 mins or so) tried driving without the FF last night (only done this once before I think) ... and can see where Atti and others are coming from with the whole precision thing ... was defo more precise and could hit my apex's a lot more accurately with no FF and nothing to "fight" against.
Within a couple of laps I was quickly down to the same kind of times I was doing with FF on.
Switching back to FF found an element of "lag" in the game that I had never noticed before too ...
I noticed too that the forces were trying to pull me wide/off line a lot more, and I missed the apex's for more easily using the FF.
It also seemed to cause more understeer, and I definitely had far more tyre squeal using the same braking points and apex's as without FF.

I reckon with a bit more time to adapt and a decent set up of the centring spring on my wheel (for better weight/resistance), I would probably knock a good chunk of time off my lap times ...

... BUT ...

Despite maybe being able to drive faster and more accurately without it, I still stand by what I said earlier ... without the FF it feels more like "gaming" than sim for me, and maybe the forces pulling you off line are actually a bit more realistic (if not faster!)??

Not being in a position to invest in or test an ECCI wheel out, then I think I will be sticking to driving around using FF for the "full experience" on my trusty ol' Logi Red Momo Force ...

PS Was joking on the G25, but nice of you to consider my expenses with shipping

I had a chance to own an ECCI as part of a bundle of other equipment I got from a guy who needed to sell his gear. That had to be one of the most gorgeous pieces of equipment I've ever owned. Well built, surgically precise, would have lasted a lifetime. I just had to have feedback though. So I went back to my DFP and eventually purchased the g25 I have now. I just find that the feedback adds to the whole experience.

[Attila Domján]

Yep, ECCI rocks big time!

Lee, believe me it was never an easy decision for me as well to get rid of my (formerly) beloved FF effects by the time i had the same shocking realisation as you had now, but i do not regret it at all.

I went on this road, dropped FF and got an ECCI set, which is the most sophisticated non FF equipment you can find on earth, and i am still smiling every time i sit to drive with it.

What further realisation i had on this non FF road (which i read tons of internet forums and thousands of replies on similar topics like this before i made my decision to go for this), that actually the way you "feel" the car in any racing simulation is maybe 10% through the FF effects, the rest is based on visual, what you see. And i found it to be true. The distraction factor with FF comes because of the delay it represents, and this distracts because you react on it naturally later then you could without it, and also there is the same gap between what you see and what you feel on your hands, what the car is doing. By using FF your brain learns quickly to correct this delay and get the feel and the visual experience into syncro, but at the end it is just not right. Basically here the same is happening as with a newborn baby, in the first period they see everything upside down, but after a while the brain learns to correct it and flip it to our current known normal position, and develops to the way we see the world as you see these lines now: "normal" position, where up is up, and down is down...

[Lee Downham]

Pleeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaassseee ... stop it ... I still want to believe in Santa and in my beloved force feedback ... but I am beginning to see the light

[Ben Tusting]

Lee I have been using force feedback of for the pre qualy and I am more consistent and quicker but i haven't decided whether i will put it on in the race server yet.

[Lee Downham]

Lalallalalalalalallalalalalalalaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaa .... I am not listening

[Daniel Plaikner]

lol Lee, nobody says you have to drive with FF off . May you faster with it on. But anyway speed is not everything . It had to be fun and it must be amusing to drive

[Frank Sutton]

I found I was slightly faster with it off. I'll never be an alien, so I'm just enjoying the feedback and the fake realism it tricks my brain into believing is there. Kinda like being plugged into the matrix

[Attila Domján]

Originally Posted by Frank Sutton

Kinda like being plugged into the matrix

Thats a very well fitting metaphor, and i love Matrix.

[Jose Ferreira]

Hi Attila, I will like to ask you a favor about steering wheel G25 setting, can you teach me about the setting of the game, controller setting?

( G25 )

Degrees of rotation: ?
-------------------
Over all Effects Strength: ?
Spring Effect Strength: ?
Damper Effect Strength: ?
-----------------------
Centering Spring Strength: ?

and inside the game there is the setting for steering wheel too....?

PS. I am giving a lot of trouble to you.

Thank you Attila

Jose Ferreira ( JoJo )

[Alessandro Gamberini]

Originally Posted by Jose Ferreira

Hi Attila, I will like to ask you a favor about steering wheel G25 setting, can you teach me about the setting of the game, controller setting?

best if you put your answer also here
http://forum.racedepartment.com/stee...f-setting.html
thanks
bye

[Tim Ling]

I'm a newbie to racing sims, I just bought a Logitech Formula Force, and I love it. I have found it hard to get the right settings though, as it really varies from car to car. It doesnt help that I can only use 1 hand atm, so any FF is set to low any way.

Unfortunately, I bought GRID as my first racing title, which is more of an arcade racer. I think GTR Evo or rFactor this month

[Ken Bethards]

I tried running a momo with feed back on in Nascar 2003 and I never could get it dialed in right. I'm not a purist or anything but it never did feel "right" so I just run without it.

Ken

[Ben Tusting]

I just Did my legue race with ffb off and I was quicker. I am using a seat though I wouldn't recommend turning this off if you drive a bmw.

[Jacek Kozlowski]

Yes Ben with FFB off on my g25 driving seat i was quicker too(used settings as Atti adviced).I was driving with FFB off for some time but i really missed something and when GTR evo appear ,with RWD cars i switched it back on as i only could know what car is doing by what i was seeing not what i felt with wheel.Now i only switch it off with FWD cars and for prequali. as i have to do just one good lap,for race i put it back on ,i feel tyre wear better that way and to be honest its more fun for me.

But its true you can be slightly faster without FFB (in my case it was about 0.3-0.5 sec.)

[Mark Guy]

Hi all.
After reading all you guy's thoughts on ff or no ff i decided to give non-FF a try and see for myself which would be better. I have done a couple of races and find that I am turning in to early for the coners and resulting in jumping over the curbs to much which I suppose it due to ff no fighting with me. The car however feels a lot more pointy which I actally like. I still haven't betten any PB's but I intend on giving this test a fair chance and tying it for a week or two. I also believe that ff makes for a a more reall feel, but I found when I have the volume high enough just the engine tone changing when going over kurbs and wheel spin already gives that very realistic feel.
Anyway I will give you guy's a update in a few days.

Cheers.