Force feedback or non force feedback

[Attila Domján]

Hya,

Around 1 year ago i made my move to purchase a non force feedback ECCI set, since at that time i made some experiment with my G25, trying it with FF turned on and off, and i found that i feel more comfortable and also faster without FF.

Today now as i am home in hungary with my G25, i made this experiment again just for curiosity. So i went to Istanbul to try and help to Willinuck for a Seat setup, and without FF i made laps high 2:03-s easily and constantly. FF off, centering spring at 125%.

Then i turned on FF, and however i enjoyed the grip/curbstones and all other effects on the wheel, and felt quite comfortable with the car handling, i lapped low 2:04-s, constantly around 0,4-0,5 sec slower as without FF.

Can be that this is only because i got very much used to drive without FF, just i thought i share with you all this experience from today.

Have a nice day: Atti

[Eckhart von Glan]

interesting point you raise, Atti. I personally wouldn't want to miss the FFb just for the sheer feel of it. I had mine accidentally turned off a few weeks ago and couldn't handle it, I missed the feel of turning in against a physical "barrier" so much, that I constantly mistook the curves, either too close or too wide. Might just be experience, though.

[Luc Frachon]

I remember a few years ago having a non-USB Microsoft FF wheel. When I switched to Win XP, I realised that this wheel was no longer supported by bespoke drivers, and was simply recognised by Windows as a generic joystick (you'd think the part of Microsoft that makes gaming accessories would speak to the part that makes OS's, wouldn't you? Anyhow...)
So I drove for few weeks without FF and even without centering. Much to my surprise I realised I was actually significantly faster! But even so, we are not only playing for performance must mostly for enjoyment, and no FF is not nearly as much fun (in my views).

[Attila Domján]

Originally Posted by lux770

and no FF is not nearly as much fun (in my views).

you should come and try an ECCI set to drive with. I still cant erase that stupid smile from my face, whenever i drive it.

[David Garcia]

Originally Posted by lux770

But even so, we are not only playing for performance must mostly for enjoyment, and no FF is not nearly as much fun (in my views).

I must say I agree with this sentence, but I can´t agree for complete since I have not tested this ECCI set, and I have heard very good things about it.

[Attila Domján]

if you are near to Mukachevo, Ukraine, you are welcome any time to try mine.

[Luc Frachon]

Wow that thing looks IMPRESSIVE!
My wife would kill me if I put something half that size in our lounge!

OT: Attila, are you a Hungarian living in Ukraine then? I might be moving to Hungary soon...

[Attila Domján]

Originally Posted by lux770

OT: Attila, are you a Hungarian living in Ukraine then? I might be moving to Hungary soon...

yep, exactly, working in Ukraine

[Dave Robinson]

lux770 send me a PM if you do move to Hungary, I have lived here for 10 years now.

Nice setup Attila by the way, hope you have a good security system living in the Ukraine though

[Mark Jarvis]

hmmm, i have never tried it without FF on but I always use the FF but at a very very low setting, maybe i will try this Cheers

[Ben Tusting]

How much an ecci set cost

[Attila Domján]

Products

basic setup GT without clutch pedal starting from 1100 USD
3 pedal GTS version with a nice Momo wheel is around 1600 USD + shipping + import taxes

[Ben Tusting]

That is alot of money. So is there a point of getting force feedback if your quicker without it

[Attila Domján]

ECCI is a non force feedback wheel, the Rolls Royce among the wheels. The main intention of their design is pure and maximal precision and control, all the forces to the wheel are coming from mechanical parts like springs, and fluid damper, and not from electro-motors.

[Lee Downham]

Originally Posted by Traumatic

That is alot of money. So is there a point of getting force feedback if your quicker without it

Agreed on price and the ECCI stuff does look and sound like it is unbelievably precise and sweet ...

BUT ... and this is just MY PERSONAL PREFERENCE here ... so I don't want to start any big ol' arguments as I know this probably could do ...

"Sim" racing = simulation racing
No FF = removes a major element of "sim"

To me its a bit like driving in rear/outside car view ... no matter how much quicker I might be with it, or how people harp on about the forces not being 100% accurate, they do add an additional dimension of fun, realism and driving experience that FOR ME enhances the whole "sim" part of any game.

Pls don't slate me, this is just how I feel on the matter ... there have probably been a 1000 "discussions" in the past on this, but for me, its about making it as involving and realistic as possible, as well as going fast ... and not having to "fight" the wheel in a bend, or not to feel the front end break free under braking takes a big part of the pleasure out of it ...

[Attila Domján]

Hey Lee, your opinion is absolutely respected, no one will slap you for having opinion, do not worry about it here at RD.

Having non FF is not only to be faster from my side, at teh beginning it was a compromise whichi was having doubt about too, to have the great precision wheel and loose FF with it forever or not, but i do not pitty my decision since then, not for a second. I feel that additional precision can add the same level to realism driving as FF, i feel the cars more with ECCI then i do with G25, which i have too, i love the set.

Cheers: Atti

[Lee Downham]

So what about the Frex GP ... do you think that will match the ECCI in terms of precision AND provide quality FF???
Not that I can afford either of these fantastic toys ... I am on an old red momo force, love it to bits (hopefully not literally) ... but also love the thought of a clutch and H-box shifter - not selling your G25 cheap are you Attila!?

[Attila Domján]

I have no idea how precise the Frex wheel will be, but because of the nature of FF delay effect on USB port, i doubt it will be fundamentally different in terms of real time control, could be that i am wrong about it.

p.s.: no, i am not planning to sell my G25, also for you the shipping could be a bit costy to Portugal from Hungary...

[Lee Downham]

I quickly (only for 10 mins or so) tried driving without the FF last night (only done this once before I think) ... and can see where Atti and others are coming from with the whole precision thing ... was defo more precise and could hit my apex's a lot more accurately with no FF and nothing to "fight" against.
Within a couple of laps I was quickly down to the same kind of times I was doing with FF on.
Switching back to FF found an element of "lag" in the game that I had never noticed before too ...
I noticed too that the forces were trying to pull me wide/off line a lot more, and I missed the apex's for more easily using the FF.
It also seemed to cause more understeer, and I definitely had far more tyre squeal using the same braking points and apex's as without FF.

I reckon with a bit more time to adapt and a decent set up of the centring spring on my wheel (for better weight/resistance), I would probably knock a good chunk of time off my lap times ...

... BUT ...

Despite maybe being able to drive faster and more accurately without it, I still stand by what I said earlier ... without the FF it feels more like "gaming" than sim for me, and maybe the forces pulling you off line are actually a bit more realistic (if not faster!)??

Not being in a position to invest in or test an ECCI wheel out, then I think I will be sticking to driving around using FF for the "full experience" on my trusty ol' Logi Red Momo Force ...

PS Was joking on the G25, but nice of you to consider my expenses with shipping

[Attila Domján]

Well, actually with the more precision i was not refering to simply switching on or off the FF on a wheel, but rather the precision difference between a commercial Logitech or any other wheel (mentioning Logitech only since it is by far the best commercial one, also the most popular, and also that i can compare it directly with my G25), and the precision of the ECCI. This set has much more detalied sensitiveness both on the rotation of the wheel and the pedals compared to the commercial ones, i remember just by heart the pedals, within the full movement of the pedal there are a bit more then 1000 points sensitiveness.

[Lee Downham]

Without spending the food budget for me and my family for the next month on a specialist wheel and pedals, I'll never know I guess
... maybe one day I will get the chance to compare all these lovely expensive toys, but for now, I will just race my humble setup how it works and feels best for me, and the main part, I know I will enjoy it ... can't say fairer than that eh?

My Rig:

[Attila Domján]

Thats the main thing, to enjoy it, i can nto agree with it more. Basically does not matter with which toys we are playing as long as we enjoy it. Nice set there buddy!

[Lee Downham]

... yeah, just waiting on the money from selling one of my kidneys then I can get a triple head setup

[Daniel Plaikner]

Hey Atti ,

I must totally agree with you in this FF queston. 1 month ago I found my personal way, by switching the FF totaly off and add the centeringspring on 120%- 150%. I think the FF its distracting me, which results in slower lap times. Example on Monza, my hometrack and favourite . I was driving all the time there at maximum 1:59:700 with the seat leon wtcc. Now with FF turned OFF I drive 1:59:400 with my favourite car the Honda wtcc.
I think with no FF you can react a bit faster. Its a bit accurater driving with FF off, I think.
I also noticed, that I'm steering when I have FF on to much.
The FF also gives you in some chases wrong information. Example on the straight when the weel goeas a bit to left then right left right... a bit. You can switch this strange thig off by lowering the FF power but if the FF sends wrong Info there maybe also in other situations it does.
Also I noticed, that the FF is not all the time on the same power lever. Example I drive 2h on a track (time atacc)with FF on high, I think sometimes it feels a bit weak then. If I close the game, put out the USB clip and reconnect it, start the game and drive again, all seems then normal . But for my surprise this thing is not happening always, but some times its does. So I don't think my weel is damaged.

This are the main strange behawiors of the FF that I noticed, maybe others found also other thigs.

So one evening I decided to drive just for fun without that FF. First impresion after a few courners was: pfff its even more strange without FF
then puted the centering spring on and it was better. made a few laps and I was totaly shocked . I was driving personal rec. And also i was surpriced of my constant lap times, lol. Did no setup changes when switching from FF on to off

So my opinion is, that FF is a good gadget but it have mistakes. So you faster without FF.
Please don't understand me miss, its great to feel the bumbs courbs and all the FF effects, but it makes me slower, lol.
Maybe other drivers are faster with FF on.

[Lee Downham]

... what wheel do you have Daniel?